Of Mice and Men - and Max - Vanquish The Foe

Of Mice and Men - and Max

by sroufe on Oct 14, 2009 7:48 AM PDT Comment 12 comments

"A guy goes nuts if he ain't got nobody. It don't make any difference who the guy is, so long as he's with you. I tell ya...I tell ya, a guy gets too lonely, and he gets sick."

It's a good thing Max has friends like Matt Reynolds that can pummel Hall's vilifiers. Apologies for beating the proverbial horse here, but this is too polarizing and interesting of an issue to ignore. Many Cougar fans, much to Mendenhall's dismay, continue to criticize Max Hall's performance - both this year and cumulatively. Of course, Hall has thrown ten interceptions already this season and several were primarily his fault despite the best efforts of his coaches to state otherwise. His clutch play against Oklahoma has been negated to some extent by subpar games against Florida State and Colorado State. These results have caused critics to reminisce on Hall's poor finish to 2008 and his struggles against defenses that play above the MWC average.

Still, Hall is presently 6th in the nation in quarterback efficiency with a 162.6 rating. Only Clausen (Notre Dame), Moore (Boise St.), Tebow (Florida), Bill Stull (Pitt) and Riley Skinner (Wake Forest) are higher. He has led the Cougars to fairly consistent national recognition during his tenure, including the program's greatest regular season win in well over a decade. He has generated 26 wins as a starter - behind just Ty Detmer and Marc Wilson (T-29) in school history.

Even if Hall (9, 528 career passing yards) were to have a Derek Anderson-esque disaster on Saturday, he will pass Jim McMahon (9,536) to become 3^rd all-time in passing yards among BYU quarterbacks. Hall currently trails John Beck (11,021) by 1,493 yards. To catch Beck, Hall has to average 213 yards passing for the remaining seven games. That appears very attainable considering the Cougars still have San Diego State, New Mexico and Wyoming on the schedule.

To give you an idea of how far out there Ty Detmer (15,031) is in first place, Hall would have to average 786 yards passing per game for the remainder of 2009 to catch the Heisman winner.

Here's a breakdown of Max's current standing:

Player, Years	Psg. Eff. Rtg.	Psg. Yards	Yrds./Attmpt.	Comp. %	TD	INT
Ty Detmer, 1988-91	162.74	15,031	9.83	62.61%	121	65
Steve Sarkisian, 1995-96	161.96	7,464	9.46	66.92%	53	26
Jim McMahon, 1977-78; 1980-81	157.50	9,536	9.03	61.84%	84	34
Brandon Doman, 1998-2001	152.03	4,354	8.64	62.10%	35	14
Steve Young, 1981-83	149.82	7,733	8.52	65.20%	56	33
Max Hall, 2007-Present	149.53	9,528	8.26	65.30%	74	36
Robbie Bosco, 1983-85	149.39	8,400	8.43	63.99%	66	36
John Walsh, 1991-94	147.60	8,390	8.60	60.25%	66	35
Gifford Nielsen, 1975-77	145.23	5,830	8.24	58.62%	55	29
Ryan Hancock, 1992	143.17	2,586	8.98	57.29%	17	13
John Beck, 2003-06	141.29	11,021	7.77	62.41%	79	34
Kevin Feterick, 1996-99	141.05	8,065	8.05	61.18%	53	26

Some might argue, Hall's success is largely due to having BYU's greatest WR (Austin Collie), TE (Dennis Pitta) and RB (Harvey Unga) as targets for the past couple seasons. But Detmer had Eric Drage and Chris Smith. Young had Gordon Hudson. Essentially that's a hard argument to make because as good as these weapons were/are, Hall is part of the reason they've been so productive.

In attempting to rank these QB's, Hall has the numbers to objectively be ranked among the Top 10, if not the Top 5. Yet, others look at last season's let down and this year's loss to FSU and feel that Hall doesn't deserve to be so highly regarded by Cougar fans. In the end, it probably depends on what you feel a Top 5 QB at BYU demands.

What is your opinion?

Finally, Hall is coming off his most efficient game in 2009. His passer rating against UNLV was 201.8. Of course, that was against the Rebels. But, he was without McKay Jacobson as a target. Nine different players caught passes - and Unga wasn't even one of them. And Hall is expected to dominate again this weekend. However, possibly the most significant games to Hall's "prestige" or legacy at BYU are what follow thereafter. TCU. Utah. His third bowl game. Time will tell...

Poll

Do you approve of Max Hall’s body of work thus far in 2009? Where will he rank among all-time BYU quarterbacks?

No; But he still makes the Top 10

9 votes

Yes; Top 5

17 votes

Yes; Top 10

27 votes

No; And he doesn't even make the Top 10

3 votes

56 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs | Comment 12 comments | Share

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Comments

I put...

No, but he makes Top 10.

The frustrating….
He’s not a “thread the needle” guy but in his mind he thinks he is. Given that he knew he would no longer have Collie, I was expecting him to come out much more mature. In fact, I think he’s digressed from last year. I really thought he was going to come out and put up Detmer #’s because he does have soooo many threats but yet we still see him overthrow, underthrow, and just completely miss the open guys.

The happy…
Don’t get me wrong, from Soph-Senior he’s been great. He came in his Sophmore year with a huge amount of weight on his shoulders! I’ll be the first to admit that I was expecting a 6-6 season because of all the talent we lost. He stepped up and his supporting cast thrilled me!

In conclusion, I have not been satisfied with his performance this year. But, I am appreciative of the work he’s done for the 3 years he was here… top 10 overall for me.

by vaughnzipper on Oct 14, 2009 8:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the comments VZ

Out of curiosity, who would you put ahead of Hall? I’m assuming Detmer, McMahon, Young, Bosco, Sarkisian, and maybe Beck and/or Nielsen. Anyone else?

If Hall led the Cougars to a victories over TCU and Utah would that vault him into the Top 5 for you?

Vanquish the Foe, a BYU Cougars blog at SB Nation

by sroufe on Oct 14, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely!

For a couple of reasons. It would get the monkey off his back that he can’t win the BIG games. Granted OU was huge and I was all over the Max wagon but then he struggled badly in the FSU game and every game since (until last Saturday). I can’t say he lost it for us though because there were many other mistakes made by others. FSU played the game of their lives, running at 110%, but now their tank has emptied and they’ve hit rock bottom. They gave it all to us and we got screwed. I’m a little off topic now…. U-Turn! Beating TCU and Utah would a) put us back int he BCS hunt, b)shut the FrUtes up, and c) show that BYU can get their heads together after a loss.

That would completely resurrect him in the eyes of the Cougar Nation. To be honest too, in 10 years are we really going to remember all the negatives of him? Probably not. He will be remembered as a great QB in the BYU QB Factory.

by vaughnzipper on Oct 14, 2009 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

What a stupid survey!

How am I suppose to sit on my butt each week and determine whether I approve of Max Hall. “Oh he should have worked harder in the off season”. “He should be more accurate.” “He needs to throw fewer interception”. “I think he should be putting up better numbers” WOW!! How should I know what he should be doing? How can you even be disappointed in the guy? He comes out, plays hard, and leaves it all on the field. He takes hits and keeps going. The guy plays through the pain. What more can he do for you?

Does he deserve to be in the top 10. Well that depends on how you rate a guy. WIns, big wins, conference championships, TD:INT ratio, completion %, etc.
But then you need a survey that ask “What defines a top 10 QB.” But a survey that ask me wether I approve of Max Hall is ridiculous. He is not running for office. He is not a politician. He is a collegiate athlete, doing his best to win football games, and being critiqued by a bunch of washed up former high school wannabees.

by Couga on Oct 14, 2009 10:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Interesting...

“How should I know what he should be doing? How can you even be disappointed in the guy?”

Some, though not necessarily me, feel that we should know how Hall should be doing based off a few things:
1) His past two seasons (leading BYU to 21 wins, a MWC championship, etc.)
2) The track record of near perfection from senior QB’s in Provo
3) He led the team in beating a national powerhouse in OU, on the road to start the season

All of these factor into fans being disappointed in his play – particularly against FSU and CSU. Personally, I feel those criticisms are premature. I want to see how he plays against TCU especially. I also think a lot of Hall’s issues this season come from losing most of last season’s dominant O-line and the most dynamic receiver to ever grace LES.

You do raise some good points. How do you define a Top 10 QB? That is why I placed the table of statistics in the post. I agree that perhaps the poll question could be worded differently, but I was merely attempting to gauge whether VTF’s visitors feel Hall has been disappointing or are able to see the bigger picture.

Thanks for the comments. I can always take some constructive criticism. Maybe I could do without the word “stupid” but you’re definitely entitled to your opinion.

Vanquish the Foe, a BYU Cougars blog at SB Nation

by sroufe on Oct 14, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Easy

Glad we (the editors fo VTF) finally pushed a botton with a GREAT article by Sroufe…
Isn’t it our job, as fans and bloggers, to say what we think people “should” do? Just because we think Hall could or should be better doesn’t change the fact that Hall has been great over three years. He is great, but he could be better. He does play hard, but he consistently makes mental mistakes at critical times in critical games that, if he didn’t make, would squash criticism.
So, the question from a sports blog to one fan is a legitimate question, even if you’re an elitist who thinks the approval should be kept sacred to politicians.
By the way, neither of the editors of this blog played high school football…you’re comment seems a bit high-schoolish, actually.

Vanquish the Foe, a BYU Cougars blog at SB Nation

by Layton on Oct 14, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes, I know "you're" isn't the same as "your"

and yes, I do know how to use them. No comment necessary. I’m trying to sneak these things in during work, and I got a little hasty…

Vanquish the Foe, a BYU Cougars blog at SB Nation

by Layton on Oct 14, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stupid enough for you to comment?

I’ll be the first to admit I’m a washed up HS football player but I’m not out to say I can do things better than Max.

To qoute “How should I know what he should be doing?” tells me you’ve never played the game or know nothing about it. Am I trying to say I know everything about it? Nope. Can I share my opinion on this small (getting bigger) sports blog? Sure! This is one of 10 million sports blogs, wake up it’s the 21 century. This blog gives people a forum to share their opinion (are you trying to take my constitution away? I’m thinking you might be Obama). My opinion is just as I said. I played the game, I have family who have played and coached for BYU and other schools, I consider myself to have some understanding of the game. What was asked here was for our opinion.

Like I stated before:

“The happy…
Don’t get me wrong, from Soph-Senior he’s been great. He came in his Sophmore year with a huge amount of weight on his shoulders! I’ll be the first to admit that I was expecting a 6-6 season because of all the talent we lost. He stepped up and his supporting cast thrilled me!

In conclusion, I have not been satisfied with his performance this year. But, I am appreciative of the work he’s done for the 3 years he was here… top 10 overall for me."

I think Max has been a great QB. MY OPINION, is that I would have expected a more mature QB. Let me ask you this Couga, say you burned your hand in hot water. What would you do? Cool it down right? You may accidently have it too hot sometimes, too cold others, but eventually you get the hang of things and you pick up the right temp and the right angle of the sink handle. Max the last 2 years has struggled trying to thread the needle. He’d throw ahead and behind guys. I expected his level of understanding the offense and supporting cast that he would eventually get things together and we’d see him light defenses up! He’d know what he’s capable of and what he’s not capable of. TO ME, I haven’t seen that growth from him. Let me get things straight though here. I am not expecting zero picks. They happen whether we like them or not. Some have been bad routes but you can’t deny that some of them have just been down right unneccessary!

Sorry if I expected to see growth out of a 3 year QB. You make it sound like I think he sucks? Not the case. The original question was “Do you approve of Max Hall’s body of work thus far in 2009?”. To me that answer is no. I would have expected more from a team leader and 3 year starter.

by vaughnzipper on Oct 14, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Terrific article...

BrainChild, you continue to astonish…
As for Hall, I’ve been notoriously pessimistic toward Max Hall, and most of the time, unfairly so. He followed Beck, who was directly responsible for bringing BYU out of the pitts. Hall has had huge shoes to fill, and when taking into account of his body of work, he’s done a phenomenal job. His winning percentage over three years will probably never be touched again over a three season career.
Like I already said, my criticism has been unfair.
However, games against TCU, Utah and FSU have left a bitter taste in fans’ mouths, and they’re criticism has been fairly directed toward him in those particular games. We know football is a team game, but anyone would be hard pressed to argue against Max Hall single-handedly losing those games for BYU, especially TCU and Utah last year.
Having said that, I still put him in the top 10, and depending on how the games against TCU and Utah go this year, ahead of Beck and perhaps Young (college career only, of course)…

Vanquish the Foe, a BYU Cougars blog at SB Nation

by Layton on Oct 14, 2009 2:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Again,

I know “they’re” = they are and “their” is possessive. No need to comment—I’m an idiot in high pressure situations, much like Max Hall…

Vanquish the Foe, a BYU Cougars blog at SB Nation

by Layton on Oct 14, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apologies

Well first let me apologize for my comments that the poll was stupid. I thought the article by sroufe very insightful. My intention was not to say it was stupid, but the idea that a we as fans could vocalize our approval over how well Max has done thus far this year. Perhaps I was a little too hasty in my remarks.

I guess I was just caught up in the “approve” of Max Hall. I don’t see that we can really approve of him and how well he has done? When I think of approval; I see it as someone meeting the expectations of another who understands how the job needs to be done. Maybe you guys understand it better than the average joe, but as for me I can’t say anything more than what I see on TV and that really isn’t enough.

Vaughnzipper…
When I said “How should I know what he should be doing?” Perhaps that shows I lack intelligence and that I “have never played the game and know nothing about it.” But I would like to think that shows an understanding of how complicated the game is. It is easy to say throw better passes, dump it off more to your rb, make better reads. But I think that is the kind of person who is simplifying the game to the level of the amaeture. My remarks were not directed at you or your comments. I don’t know why you came off like you did. Comment away. Share your opinions and I’ll share mine. You made some good points and my comment just happened to come after yours.

by Couga on Oct 14, 2009 7:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Min Hall

He will always be Min Hall in my opinion until he redeems himself versus TCU and Utah. I rarely give quarterbacks the credit or the blame for losing a game but Min almost single handedly lost those two games last year with his interceptions and fumbles.

I laughed out loud at a friend while watching the Colorado State game. He mentioned Min and a career in the NFL in the same sentence.

IF he redeems himself this year in the two remaining difficult games I’ll be back with an apology. Let’s hope he surprises me.

Go Cougs.

by NoleDad on Oct 14, 2009 8:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs