A Contentious Cougar

by sroufe on Dec 1, 2009 1:00 AM PST Comment 4 comments

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In case you're unaware, VTF has a Facebook page where you can also discuss Max Hall's comments and all things Cougars. If you're looking for something more specific in terms of social networking, you might try joining the group, "Max Hall Should Have His CTR Ring Taken Away" or "Max Hall Said What Everyone Else Was Thinking." I guess it depends on your point of view. Perhaps the most successful of these groups (with 7,000+ fans and counting) would be the one endorsed by Block U: "Max Hall Hates Me And Thinks I'm Classless."

This is truly a debate involving two extremes. The reasonable Cougar/Ute fan would surely not egg Jaime Hill's car or punch Jamie Whittingham or douse McKinzi Hall with Polygamy Porter. Those who perform such acts are neither good representatives of the schools' they profess to root for, nor are they symbolic of the state's culture in which most of them reside. They are idiots plain and simple. Gordon Monson was correct in his assessment:

"Maybe, just maybe, everyone can learn from this whole thing. Maybe everyone can learn that there really is too much animosity and antipathy, too much bitterness and nastiness, too much malice and rancor in this rivalry. Too much hatred. Too much hatred mixed with religion. There's guilt on both sides in this state, the red and the blue."

So while Hall's comments were "from the heart," that made his apology on Sunday all the more necessary. But Hall also isn't the one who began this feud (and he assuredly wasn't calling for fans to enact vengeance) and deep down even the non-extremists are involved on some level. A healthy rivalry is extremely fun for everyone, but when it takes a terrible turn toward those altercations in the stands and elsewhere, a line must be drawn. Hopefully we can all recognize where that line is and encourage others - no matter their allegiances - to act respectfully. As VTF member heyjoe! said yesterday:

"I guess we all need that rivalry 'kill switch' where when we realize it is getting a little too personal, or a little too 'real,' then we need to kill it."

That said, my take is that Hall openly stated the opinion of many Cougar fans. (Morgan Scalley did the same for Ute fans in 2004.) As such, Hall has publicly proclaimed what many have wished to express "ab aeterno" but either haven't been permitted or simply haven't had the guts to say. For some then I can see how the QB's words bring relief. (That is still not condoning the unfortunate incidents involving Coach Whittingham's family or anyone else.) Many BYU fans don't want to say such things out of fear of being portrayed as sanctimonious. And rightly so...

You see, the truth is that both sides have impolite and obstinate fans and each group needs to clean it up. But when a BYU fan, or even occasionally a student athlete, acts in an ill-mannered way, he/she is labeled as pharisaic and just another "zoobie" hypocrite. When Ute fan acts likewise, they are seemingly exempt from such criticisms. Somehow for them the behavior is acceptable, because well, it's almost expected.

And that is what is underlying Hall's remarks. There is/was a pent-up frustration caused by an erroneous perspective of BYU fan/athlete - that because of their religion or the university honor code, they are devoid of strong opinions and see themselves as perfect individuals. While I do feel that Hall's post-game comments were unnecessarily broad, maybe we owe Max our gratitude for allowing himself to be castigated on our behalf. In the end his words could contribute to his prestige in our minds nearly as much as his actual performance on the field. And as Dr. Saturday posted:

"Even if the world doesn't approve of your thoughts, Max, at least you were able to express them by the most satisfying means at your disposal."

Relevant Links:

Bronco on Max: "He spoke from his heart" - Greg Wrubell, KSL
Hall comes up big when it counts - Andrew Aragon, Deseret News
Hall's pain a reflection of self-betrayal - Amy Donaldson, Deseret News
Heated rivals no longer allowed to hate each other? - Deadspin
Mad Max's thunder a blunder - Gordon Monson, Salt Lake Tribune
Mad Max will regret post game blunder - Bleacher Report
Max Hall does his part to keep the BYU-Utah hate alive - Dr. Saturday
Max Hall releases apology - Sean Reynolds, Block U
QB Hall's apology says rant overboard - Jay Drew, Salt Lake Tribune
Rivalry continues to thrive - Kurt Kragthorpe, Salt Lake Tribune
The case against Max Hall - Cougar Blue (Daily Herald) Forum
The other side of the holy war - Jeremy Mauss, MWC Connection
There's too much hate in ... rivalry - Gordon Monson, Salt Lake Tribune
Utah fans lash back at Hall - Lindsay Whitehurst, Salt Lake Tribune

Photo Link (Salt Lake Tribune)

Poll

Do you support Max Hall's post-game comments?

Yes! I absolutely agree with Max and think anyone associated with the University of Utah should be treated with the utmost contempt. Ship the Utes to Kamchatka for all I care.

7 votes

Yes, in part. Like Max, I can't stand the U, however he certainly went overboard with his overly broad statement(s).

23 votes

No, in part. Though Hall's remarks were too far-reaching I understand the comments were made after his family had been attacked at RES, etc.

12 votes

No! Hall is a hideous Romulan! I would rather suffer losses to the Cougars a thousand times than acknowledge that Zoobie's opinions.

2 votes

44 votes | Poll has closed

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Comments

Awesome

GREAT article and some valid points.

I was under the impression that Whit’s wife was just in the area of a fan fight but not involved. Was she actually targeted?

by Couga on Dec 1, 2009 6:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

No

Fortunately, Whittingham’s wife wasn’t the target of the altercation. Here’s the latest… http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705348297/2-citations-issued-at-Y-U-game.html

Vanquish the Foe, a BYU Cougars blog at SB Nation

by Layton on Dec 1, 2009 9:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice post.

And congradulations on your top 14 BCS ranking and BCS eligibility (even thought it is unlikely to turn into a BCS selection).

I can tell you that I have certainly said far worse about BYU than Hall said about Utah. The bar is raise for statements made in post game interviews as compaired to fans posting on their home team’s message boards about a heated rival in the build up to the greatest rivalry in college football (At least the Mississippi State head coach thinks so, and he has seen Florida’s rivalry with Georgia and FSU first hand).

Fans on both sides need to draw the line when good old-fashioned hate turns into assault. It is one thing to talk a little smack and another entirely to direct one’s passion into any individual representing either institution, whether a player, fan, the family of a coach or player or a cheer leader.

Maybe a coach, athletic director or president are in a pay grade to take this kind of abuse. If you really want to punch Whittingham that is one thing (I think he is tougher than our cheer leader proved to be). Going for his family is another.

It is not Max Hall’s statements that indicate a problem is affot. He has recieved his deserved public repramand from the MWC and I am ready to leave it at that. The punishment fits the crime.

I can understand the frustration of BYU fans, especially given BYU’s consistent level of success only to watch Utah twice have an exceptionally good year and reaping a BCS windfall. Boise State fans are even more justifiably frustrated.

When fans begin damaging the property of thier own coaches and verbally assaulting their own coaches families a serious problem exists that needs to be addressed.

Fans on both sides of this rivalry need to stand up and police their own before someone gets seriously hurt. I think we all know that attempting to moderate a hostile fan in the other color is only going to fan the flames hire. Lets all agree to make a stand to temper those who are approaching the line in our own colors.

Lets agree to make this rivalry one known for its classy hate, not classless acts of violence.

BCS Evolution -- Punctuating the Equilibrium - twitter

by utesfan100 on Dec 1, 2009 7:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Surprised

I’m surprised of the local reaction to Hall’s comments. What he said is no different—and hardly news—than what’s seen in heated rivalries throughout the nation, as evidenced by comments on espn.com regarding the issue. People around the country are wondering what the big deal is…Hall hates the Utes and their fans—so, what?!

Having said that, calling the university itself classless is extremely general and shouldn’t have been said.

As for the altercation involving Whittinham’s family and the BYU fan…IT’S BEING BLOWN WAY OUT OF PROPORTION. Here’s what happened according to police reports: A BYU fan was taking pictures of Utah players after the game and an upset Utah fan told him to stop taking pictures. The BYU fan continued and the Ute fan grabbed this guy’s phone and threw it on the field, and a scuffle ensued. A ridiculous over-reaction to somebody taking pictures.
Then, that same Utah fan went up to a professional photographer and told him, again, to stop taking pictures of his team’s players. When the photographer didn’t stop, the fan shoved the camera in the cameraman’s face.
Whittingham’s wife just happened to be in the area…

Now, do I think this rivalry is intensely personal? Yes. Too personal? Yes. Very often lines are crossed because of what fans say to each other. Making fun of one’s religion or beliefs, and verbally abusing them because they choose to live according to those beliefs, has no part of a football rivalry. Obviously, assault (which is illegal) would also fit under that definition of crossing a line. Fans just need to relax and realize these games just are not that important.

I’ve personally witnessed this rivalry go from good-natured and fun to vile and mean. It’s sad when BYU fans visit RES and feel scared for their safety. The beatings should stay on the field. No question. Unfortunately, I think it’s going to take somebody getting seriously hurt until people realize they’ve gone too far…

Vanquish the Foe, a BYU Cougars blog at SB Nation

by Layton on Dec 1, 2009 9:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs